Legislature(2007 - 2008)CAPITOL 17

01/29/2008 01:30 PM House TRANSPORTATION


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01:34:21 PM Start
01:35:01 PM Presentation: 2030 Plan
03:24:04 PM Adjourn
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ 2030 Plan TELECONFERENCED
-- Testimony <Invitation Only> --
                    ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE                                                                                  
            HOUSE TRANSPORTATION STANDING COMMITTEE                                                                           
                        January 29, 2008                                                                                        
                           1:34 p.m.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS PRESENT                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Representative Kyle Johansen, Chair                                                                                             
Representative Mark Neuman, Vice Chair                                                                                          
Representative Anna Fairclough                                                                                                  
Representative Craig Johnson                                                                                                    
Representative Wes Keller                                                                                                       
Representative Mike Doogan                                                                                                      
Representative Woodie Salmon                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS ABSENT                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
All members present                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
PRESENTATION:  2030 PLAN                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
     - HEARD                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
PREVIOUS COMMITTEE ACTION                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
No previous action to report                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
WITNESS REGISTER                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
JEFF OTTESEN, Director                                                                                                          
Division of Program Development                                                                                                 
Department of Transportation & Public Facilities                                                                                
Juneau, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION STATEMENT:  Discussed the 2030 Plan and answered                                                                     
questions.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
ACTION NARRATIVE                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  KYLE JOHANSEN  called  the  House Transportation  Standing                                                             
Committee meeting  to order at 1:34:21  PM.  Present at  the call                                                             
to  order   were  Representatives  Neuman,   Keller,  Fairclough,                                                               
Salmon, Doogan and Chair Johansen.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
^PRESENTATION:  2030 PLAN                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
1:35:01 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE FAIRCLOUGH  informed members  that she  received a                                                               
letter from DOT&PF but has not yet had time to read it.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE NEUMAN  noted DOT&PF  extended the  public comment                                                               
period on the  2030 Plan so that legislators and  the public have                                                               
more  time  to  review  it.     He  thanked  Chair  Johansen  for                                                               
intervening in that matter.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR JOHANSEN  announced that Representative Johnson  had joined                                                               
the  committee.   He then  thanked DOT&PF  for being  flexible in                                                               
extending the  public comment period  for the 2030 Plan  and said                                                               
the  commissioner   assured  him   the  extension  will   not  be                                                               
problematic to  the STIP  process.  He  welcomed Mr.  Ottesen and                                                               
asked him to continue his presentation.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
1:36:08 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
JEFF   OTTESEN,  Director,   Division  of   Program  Development,                                                               
Department of  Transportation &  Public Facilities,  told members                                                               
his topic today would  be the 2030 Plan.  He  said he would first                                                               
answer a question  raised last week about  efficiencies DOT&PF is                                                               
employing  to  address  the   increased  cost  of  transportation                                                               
projects.  He stated:                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
     The three  things that  I can  point to is  we, a  couple of                                                               
     years  ago, identified  a software  package  that helps  you                                                               
     optimize  the route  selection of  a new  route when  you're                                                               
     working  in  through  terrain  and   you  have  things  like                                                               
     wetlands and  historic properties and  any of a  dozen other                                                               
     considerations  including cut  fill,  haul  balances of  cut                                                               
     fill,   software   developed   by   the   Australian   Roads                                                               
     Commission.   They then  took it commercial.   It  has since                                                               
     been sold to Trimble, which is  a company here in the United                                                               
     States  and is  used in  six continents  to identify  roads,                                                               
     including about  seven or  eight DOTs.   We  identified that                                                               
     software.  I  wish I could tell  you that we bought  it.  We                                                               
     can't.   It's actually sold on  a per use basis  by the mile                                                               
     so  you rent  the software  per project  per mile.   We  did                                                               
     negotiate,  they   claim  -  they  the   company,  the  only                                                               
     exception  to their  worldwide pricing  policy, and  we were                                                               
     able  to tell  them that  our  low volume  roads deserved  a                                                               
     lower price than say a four  lane freeway in Texas.   That's                                                               
     one example.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
     Another example  is one  we're actually  demonstrating right                                                               
     now  with   [the  Department  of]  Public   Safety  and  the                                                               
     Anchorage Police Department is a  camera that you can use to                                                               
     photograph a crime  scene, and I'll get to  engineering in a                                                               
     minute.     In  that   photograph  it   allows  you   to  do                                                               
     measurements after  the fact, very accurate  measurements so                                                               
     you can  photograph the crime  scene or the  accident scene,                                                               
     take measurements,  use them  in court, do  a lot  of things                                                               
     that now  are done by hand  and accelerate the opening  of a                                                               
     freeway or  a highway  after a  fatal accident,  which often                                                               
     can  take hours  to clear.   It's  a very  expensive camera.                                                               
     It's over  $200,000 but its engineering  application is that                                                               
     it can also  be used to photograph a  very busy intersection                                                               
     and  allow you  to  do measurements  without  having to  put                                                               
     people out  in traffic lanes.   You can photograph  a bridge                                                               
     from  different  angles.    The   State  of  Washington  DOT                                                               
     identified it last year as  their technology of the year for                                                               
     those applications so we're now  going to be using that here                                                               
     in  Alaska.    It  has  both  highway  safety  benefits  and                                                               
     engineering benefits.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     The  third one,  and  one we  implemented,  is a  technology                                                               
     called video  log.  Video  log is  where you drive  down the                                                               
     road and  take a  lot of  pictures.   Those pictures  can be                                                               
     used and then put on the  web and viewed by the engineers to                                                               
     look at the  roadway, say on a day like  today when the road                                                               
     is  covered  with snow  and  it's  hard  to  get out.    The                                                               
     daylight is  short.  They can  sit in their offices  and see                                                               
     that roadway  in optimal conditions.   Very  high resolution                                                               
     photographs - there are 1,200 of  them taken per mile.  It's                                                               
     indexed in a way that  it makes measurements possible of the                                                               
     assets  on the  roadway.    That's unique.    Among all  the                                                               
     states  only  one other  state  has  been  able to  do  that                                                               
     particular trick...to have it indexed  in a way that you can                                                               
     actually do measurements  so we can do asset  inventory in a                                                               
     very cost effective  manner as opposed to  putting people in                                                               
     the  field  and  measuring  things manually.    It  has  two                                                               
     benefits  -   asset  inventory  and  for   engineering,  the                                                               
     feedback I'm  getting from engineers  in the field  that are                                                               
     using this are saying this is  wonderful.  This allows us to                                                               
     see every  detail of that  roadway sitting in  their office,                                                               
     be it Anchorage, Fairbanks or  Juneau, without a field trip,                                                               
     without  travel,  and  without   dealing  with  things  like                                                               
     traffic control  and bad weather  and snow  cover, etcetera,                                                               
     etcetera.  So, those are three efficiencies.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  JOHANSEN  asked  if  the   [video  log]  camera  would  be                                                               
applicable to airstrips or other modes of transportation.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN replied the camera  could be applied to Alaska Marine                                                               
Highway  System (AMHS)  projects.   He  was not  sure whether  it                                                               
could  be  applied  to  aviation  projects.    He  said  the  law                                                               
enforcement community  is intrigued by it.   The FBI is  using it                                                               
for crime scene investigations and,  to demonstrate its accuracy,                                                               
can measure the diameter of a bullet hole from a photograph.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE NEUMAN  asked whether  the cost of  that equipment                                                               
is already included in DOT&PF's budget.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN  said that  equipment will be  paid for  with Highway                                                               
Safety  Funds.     DOT&PF  will   provide  two  cameras   to  law                                                               
enforcement; one  to the Anchorage  Police Department and  one to                                                               
the Alaska State Troopers.   DOT&PF could download accident scene                                                               
photos on the day the accident occurred.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE NEUMAN  asserted that  he has  been trying  to get                                                               
departments to work together so  he commended Mr. Ottesen for his                                                               
efforts.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN  told members  he would  like to  talk to  them about                                                               
DOT&PF's Highway Safety Plan later  in the session because it was                                                               
developed  with remarkable  cooperation  among  departments.   He                                                               
noted highway safety  is a very serious problem; the  plan goes a                                                               
long way in identifying the scope of the problem.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN continued his presentation:                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
     With that,  I'm ready to begin,  Mr. Chairman.  I'd  like to                                                               
     talk about  schedule first because schedule  has really been                                                               
     the key  issue on  people's minds,  including Representative                                                               
     Neuman's  comments here  before we  gaveled in.   There's  a                                                               
     diagram there in  your chart, made from Excel,  with about a                                                               
     two-year time  line.  That  diagram basically shows  you the                                                               
     schedule  we  thought  we were  following  starting  in  the                                                               
     summer of  2006 when  the regulations  were issued  in draft                                                               
     form that governed this planning process.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
     We  knew  then  we  had   a  potential  problem  in  getting                                                               
     everything done  that we  had to  get done.   We had  to get                                                               
     done  under  that a  long  range  transportation plan  in  a                                                               
     certain  amount  of  time.    We also  had  to  get  done  a                                                               
     strategic  highway  safety  plan, which  I  just  mentioned.                                                               
     That was even on  a shorter time frame.  That  was due to be                                                               
     done  by September  of last  year with  about a  $13 million                                                               
     consequence if we  didn't get it done.  We'd  lose that much                                                               
     money.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
     As the summer of '06 wore on,  we also knew we were going to                                                               
     have a new administration,  which added another dimension to                                                               
     the problem.  You couldn't  really be starting a policy plan                                                               
     when,  one way  or  another, there  was going  to  be a  new                                                               
     governor here  in Juneau  come December of  that year.   So,                                                               
     whatever we did,  we had to wait for  the new administration                                                               
     to get  on board.  Our  solution to that was  we will update                                                               
     the STIP  because the STIP is  the thing that is  really the                                                               
     tool that US  DOT is using to control the  completion of the                                                               
     plan.  The  plan has to be complete before  we can amend the                                                               
     STIP  [Statewide Transportation  Improvement Plan].   That's                                                               
     the controlling factor.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
     So  we said  let's have  a  STIP that's  amended before  the                                                               
     deadline, which  was July  of last  year.   We will  then be                                                               
     able to  extend the  time that we  processed the  plan given                                                               
     the fact that we'd have a  new administration.  Our plan was                                                               
     we would have the long  range plan done by approximately the                                                               
     end of  2006, at which time  the STIP would have  carried us                                                               
     across  that gap  in time  of about  six months.   The  next                                                               
     wrinkle,  the   card  that  got   dealt  that   we  couldn't                                                               
     anticipate,  was the  way  the money  was  allocated at  the                                                               
     start of 2008  in September of last year and  I talked about                                                               
     that a  little bit  in the STIP  presentation, about  how we                                                               
     had a change and how  much apportionment we're receiving and                                                               
     that  has changed  our flexibility.   We  now have  to spend                                                               
     dollars  in categories  we weren't  planning on  spending it                                                               
     in,  specifically  more  safety  projects  and  more  bridge                                                               
     projects, less  highway reconstruction  projects.   The only                                                               
     way we  can change the STIP  to then spend those  dollars in                                                               
     this fiscal year  is to get the  plan done and then  to do a                                                               
     STIP amendment and  then we will be ready to  do the project                                                               
     work that will enable us to not lose those dollars.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
     I  know this  is confusing.   If  you look  at this  you see                                                               
     where that first  horizontal band of red is.   That's really                                                               
     where we  lost our flexibility.   That's when we  said oops,                                                               
     we need  to do a STIP  amendment now but we  had to complete                                                               
     the  long  range transportation  plan  and  then do  a  STIP                                                               
     amendment.   You  see there  those arrows  right below  - or                                                               
     between the  two red lines.   You can see that  short amount                                                               
     of red  arrow there near the  bottom.  That's the  amount of                                                               
     time that will be left to  obligate funds at the end of this                                                               
     fiscal year after  first completing the long  range plan and                                                               
     then  completing the  STIP  amendment.   So  we're taking  a                                                               
     very, very  generous amount  of time, 10  or 11  months, and                                                               
     compressing it into  two to three months  under the schedule                                                               
     right  now.   There's  really  no one  here  to  blame.   We                                                               
     thought we had  a plan.  It was identified  given all of the                                                               
     facts  ahead  of  us,  the   new  change  in  governor,  the                                                               
     requirement to  do everything,  the fact  that we  were also                                                               
     working  on a  separate  planning document  but, when  those                                                               
     notices  arrived in  October, all  our well-laid  plans were                                                               
     basically undone.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
     So  if that's  not  entirely  clear because  it's  a lot  of                                                               
     material here...I'd be happy to  go over that further so you                                                               
     understand.   That's the push.   That's  why we tried  to do                                                               
     this plan  quickly and it's  because we literally  have tens                                                               
    of millions of dollars of state funding that's at risk.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   NEUMAN  asked   Mr.  Ottesen   to  explain   the                                                               
unexpected events.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN said in the 20 years  he has been in the business, he                                                               
has  never seen  DOT&PF lose  the flexibility  that it  lost with                                                               
apportionment last October.  He  affirmed the rescissions are the                                                               
problem.  Rescissions are a  take back of apportionment, which is                                                               
hollow in most cases because it  is an unfulfilled promise.  When                                                               
that  is left  on DOT&PF's  books,  it gives  DOT&PF latitude  to                                                               
adjust when a project slips and  another must be substituted.  He                                                               
said now,  DOT&PF now has to  substitute like for like  so that a                                                               
bridge project  would have to  be substituted for  another bridge                                                               
project  of  a like  dollar  amount.   Previously,  DOT&PF  could                                                               
substitute any project for another.  He continued:                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
     So the change  in October of last year, I  still describe it                                                               
     internally  as literally  turning our  world upside  down in                                                               
     how we manage  projects.  I don't know to  this day that all                                                               
     of  our staff  fully  understands its  implications.   We've                                                               
     spent time  talking to them,  explaining to them, but  a lot                                                               
     of people  in DOT...really  want to  know what's  my budget,                                                               
     what's my schedule, let me get  it done.  They don't want to                                                               
     deal with these  arcane rules of the funding  itself.  There                                                               
     are just  a few of  us that have to  suffer those roles.   I                                                               
    hope that answers your question, Representative Neuman.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
1:48:50 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN continued his presentation:                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
     So, the plan itself -  there's a PowerPoint presentation I'd                                                               
     like to go through.   On the bottom of page  1 there's - you                                                               
     know,  the question  why is  there another  plan.   Well the                                                               
     feds  make  us do  it  in  a  simple  nutshell.   There's  a                                                               
     requirement in SAFETEA-LU that we  not only have a statewide                                                               
     long range  transportation plan,  but that  we update  it to                                                               
     meet  new requirements  that were  contained in  SAFETEA-LU.                                                               
     In our  state we have  chosen to  treat the long  range plan                                                               
     as,  what I  call, a  top level  plan, a  strategic plan,  a                                                               
     policy plan.   Those are the kinds of words  you see used in                                                               
     other states.   About a  third of the  states do it  in that                                                               
     approach.  Some  states - I'll pick out a  state that I know                                                               
     that doesn't  do it  that way is  Kansas but  Kansas doesn't                                                               
     have ferries,  they don't  have aviation,  they have  a very                                                               
     simple state highway  system.  They don't do a  lot of local                                                               
     roads.  So it's fairly easy  for them to write one plan that                                                               
     covers all  of their needs  and get it  done.  The  state of                                                               
     Alaska  - huge  geography, lots  of different  systems, very                                                               
     diverse sets of  needs between urban areas  and rural areas.                                                               
     Trying to  do one plan  that covered everything and  was the                                                               
     definitive plan,  there was  no other  document to  turn to,                                                               
     would just be a huge job.   I don't think it's possible.  We                                                               
     do it in a tiered approach.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
     The policy  plan is  literally kind of  a high  level 30,000                                                               
     foot view  of where the state  needs to go but  it leaves to                                                               
     those other  planning documents the  details.  Their  job is                                                               
     to  flush out  the  details, be  it a  modal  plan, like  an                                                               
     aviation plan or a marine  highway plan, or a geographically                                                               
     constrained plan,  like the Anchorage long  range plan, like                                                               
     the Southwest Alaska transportation  plan or there are other                                                               
     topics too.   We have for safety, we have  plans for ITS; we                                                               
     have plans for other subsets.   If you look at AS 44.42.050,                                                               
     you'll find that state law  actually provides, just for what                                                               
     I'm  talking   about,  a  tiered   plan  done   in  multiple                                                               
     documents.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
1:50:40 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN continued:                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
     On page 2  ... speaking here what I've just  said at the top                                                               
     of 3.   This  plan is  a policy plan.   It's  not a  list of                                                               
     projects.   We don't want  it to  be so unrealistic  that we                                                               
     just say  that the sky  is blue and  the future is  rosy and                                                               
     let's go build everything we need  to build.  We wanted this                                                               
     plan to have one overriding  message:  there's been a change                                                               
     in funding,  there's been  a change  at the  national level,                                                               
     there's been a change in  what the dollars accomplish and we                                                               
     think that was the  key message to get out.   If we don't do                                                               
     something   different   as   a   state,   our   dreams   for                                                               
     transportation will be in peril.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
     And so, when  we started this plan, we said  that is the key                                                               
     message.  We  have to communicate that one  thing if nothing                                                               
     else in this planning document.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE DOOGAN  said he  is familiar  with the  2030 plan.                                                               
Some projects  were specifically  mentioned but always  under the                                                               
rubric of "among others."  He  asked whether a 2030 plan could be                                                               
submitted that did not include any projects.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN said  the plan did not have to  include any projects;                                                               
however DOT&PF  felt such  a plan  would not  adequately explain,                                                               
for  example,  system  expansion  so projects  were  included  to                                                               
illustrate  those  phrases.    He asserted  that  DOT&PF  is  not                                                               
attempting to  let those  named projects  serve as  projects that                                                               
must go forward.   Some of the named projects  are already in the                                                               
implementation stage.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
1:53:23 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN continued:                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
     Even  our list  of  what we  call  strategic projects,  $5.5                                                               
     billion and  we talk in there  about that, we...deliberately                                                               
     did not  make that list  part of the  plan because to  do so                                                               
     would let everyone argue over  the non-essential point.  The                                                               
     point is  not which  projects are in  that 5.5  billion, the                                                               
     point is we  can't build that 5.5  billion without something                                                               
     being different on  the funding side.  It's sort  of moot to                                                               
     talk  about the  projects  as there  isn't  enough money  to                                                               
     build the list.   And the 5.5 billion is  a subset of needs,                                                               
     not the  entire list, and  that's the  key point.   We can't                                                               
     even build  an important subset  of needs, even if  we could                                                               
     all sit at the table and agree  what the subset is.  We have                                                               
     to constrain further and that's  really what we're trying to                                                               
     say is the  current funding stream will only get  you so far                                                               
     against the broad set of needs in this state.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
     The other thing  about the plan I should talk  about is just                                                               
     that the  funding itself  that's shown  in the  plan ignores                                                               
     the question of  eligibility.  It treats all  of the funding                                                               
     we get as essentially one  color - aviation dollars, highway                                                               
     dollars,   marine  highway   operating  dollars,   etcetera.                                                               
     That's only  to make the  point at  the macro level,  at the                                                               
     30,000 foot  level, how are we  doing?  We're not  trying to                                                               
     say well  we need to  shift aviation dollars to  highways or                                                               
     ferry  dollars  to  something  else.     That  can't  happen                                                               
     legally.   We understand that.   But the key point  is there                                                               
     are some real  holes between what we think we  need to do as                                                               
     an owner  of the  transportation system  and what  our means                                                               
     are to address those ownership responsibilities.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  DOOGAN asked  about  a  relationship between  the                                                               
projects  mentioned in  the 2030  Plan  and the  projects in  the                                                               
STIP, "that is, it doesn't make  it more likely that a project is                                                               
going to get into  the STIP if it's in the  2030; it doesn't make                                                               
it less likely if it's not."                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN said  it might make project inclusion  more likely in                                                               
the subordinate plans.  He then elaborated:                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
     If you are writing an area  plan, just pick a region, or the                                                               
     YK  Delta   and  you   propose  to   build  an   8,000  foot                                                               
     strip...when the policy is we  should be building 3,300 foot                                                               
     strips because  we have  so many needs  we need  to allocate                                                               
     funds judiciously ... we would  probably tell the authors of                                                               
     that regional plan  you can't make that  recommendation.  It                                                               
     isn't  consistent with  being ...  fair with  the money  and                                                               
     making it  serve as many  user groups  as possible.   So, it                                                               
     might  constrain  what goes  in  a  subordinate plan,  which                                                               
     would then  constrain what goes  into a spending plan.   But                                                               
     we're not trying to make this  long range plan, and we could                                                               
     put those  kinds of words in  the front end of  the document                                                               
     if that would make  people more comfortable, we deliberately                                                               
     keep this  as a policy  plan, as  a strategic vision  with a                                                               
     message  about funding.   We  think that's  really the  take                                                               
     away message  coming out of this  plan.  The truth  is, most                                                               
     of our  long range plans  up until now have  been "yawners."                                                               
     They have  sat on  the shelf  and they  have not  drawn much                                                               
     interest.   For  some reason  this one  caught interest  and                                                               
     it's kind of been an interesting phenomena.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
1:56:24 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  NEUMAN  asked  how  he  can  communicate  to  his                                                               
constituents what  DOT&PF's specific responsibilities are  in his                                                               
district,  particularly  since  his  district  has  many  borough                                                               
transportation projects underway.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN said  that is  a  good question  because the  public                                                               
doesn't care  who owns the  road.  The  public wants to  drive on                                                               
safe, smooth roads that are appropriate  to their needs.  He said                                                               
there  is a  hierarchy of  roads  in Alaska  based on  ownership:                                                               
state, local government, federal or tribal entities.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  NEUMAN asked  for information  to provide  to his                                                               
constituents.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN  said he can  provide maintenance district maps.   He                                                               
pointed out that sometimes road maintenance is cross-shared.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
1:59:09 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE NEUMAN noted a local  road service area (RSA) does                                                               
some of the crack seal work on state-owned roads.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN noted  DOT&PF is  statutorily  required to  maintain                                                               
lists of state roads, which are posted on the Internet.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR JOHANSEN said he recognizes  why people are frustrated with                                                               
the 2030 Plan  and how it affects future projects.   He expressed                                                               
concern that if  the long range plan policy is  concentrated on a                                                               
certain area, it will affect specific projects.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN remarked  it  is far  more  likely that  subordinate                                                               
plans will specify project prioritizations.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR JOHANSEN  asked if constituents  should focus on  the modal                                                               
plans.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN replied  in  terms of  allocating  resources in  the                                                               
short term, those  plans are far more meaningful.   The 2030 Plan                                                               
is treated as a call to arms  for the state.  The funding picture                                                               
has  changed.    A  different  approach  is  necessary  otherwise                                                               
Alaskans  must come  to  grips with  what the  state  is able  to                                                               
accomplish.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
2:02:21 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JOHNSON asked if  there is still an administrative                                                               
interest in participating  in the upgrade and  trade of municipal                                                               
roads and whether  that should be included in the  2030 Plan.  He                                                               
explained the  upgrade and  trade involve  the state  upgrading a                                                               
road and  then giving  it to the  municipality, which  would then                                                               
maintain it.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN  said that strategy  is not  listed in the  2030 Plan                                                               
but should be.   That policy has been in  existence for almost 20                                                               
years.  He  noted that one complaint about the  2030 Plan is that                                                               
it does not  sufficiently address ports and harbors.   DOT&PF has                                                               
been  devolving  itself from  ports  and  harbors for  20  years.                                                               
DOT&PF  has  transferred  ownership   of  many  harbor  and  road                                                               
facilities and will continue  to do so if it has  the funds to do                                                               
upgrades.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JOHNSON  asked whether  that philosophy  should be                                                               
included in  the 2030 Plan as  an overriding plan and  whether it                                                               
will limit DOT&PF if it is not in the plan.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN said  that type of policy comes  from the legislature                                                               
so  it does  not need  to  be included  in the  plan; however  he                                                               
believes it should  be included in the  plan's overall efficiency                                                               
proposal because it makes DOT&PF  more efficient.  DOT&PF manages                                                               
many  more roads  than the  typical department  of transportation                                                               
elsewhere in  the country.   DOT&PF manages  about 40  percent of                                                               
the  state's  road miles.    The  national  average is  about  20                                                               
percent.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  JOHNSON encouraged  Mr. Ottesen  to include  that                                                               
policy in the  2030 Plan to help DOT&PF get  closer to 20 percent                                                               
and divest itself of roads within municipalities.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
2:06:02 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  FAIRCLOUGH cautioned  the  urban  members of  the                                                               
committee to be careful what they wish for.  She continued:                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
     When  you  enter  projects  like that  you  have  long  term                                                               
     obligations  that go  out into  the future  that you  burden                                                               
     people  who,  from  some  urban areas,  think  they  pay  an                                                               
     extraordinary amount  of taxes and bonding  capacity already                                                               
     and so, again,  from my service prior to this  body, we have                                                               
     been involved in my community  before, taking over roads and                                                               
     it does create  clarity for who is responsible  for the snow                                                               
     being on them,  but it also adds obligations  about a decade                                                               
     out in  the future of when  you have to repair  them locally                                                               
     and do that.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
     I just  think that  as a  state representative  we certainly                                                               
     need to look for ways  to reduce the state's responsibility,                                                               
     and, from  that perspective, I  think it should  be included                                                               
     in the  plan.  But, as  far as the community  members that I                                                               
     represent, I  feel it  an error  in my way  not to  say that                                                               
     that could  in the future cause  them to have a  bond before                                                               
     them that would require them over  the next 30 years to have                                                               
     to pay for that improvement out of their own pockets.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN continued his presentation:                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
     Slide   4   -   We're   trying  to   address   the   state's                                                               
     responsibilities in each of the  modes that we're looking at                                                               
     primarily.  Obviously there's some  question about ports and                                                               
     harbors that I've already discussed.   We are amplifying the                                                               
     ports and harbors discussion.   I should add we have reached                                                               
     tentative  agreement  with   two  other  organizations,  the                                                               
     Denali  Commission  and the  Corps  of  Engineers, to  do  a                                                               
     three-way  study  of  the  state's  port  and  harbor  needs                                                               
     because  it's kind  of long  overdue.   One, it  hasn't been                                                               
     done  in a  long time  and  two, there  have been  a lot  of                                                               
     changes in  what is  needed out  there, everything  from the                                                               
     change in shipping lanes due  to the diminishing ice, to the                                                               
     fisheries  in western  Alaska  just due  to  the changes  in                                                               
     evolution  that have  gone on  in  fisheries, all  gravitate                                                               
     toward a  need to look  hard at  what our ports  and harbors                                                               
     need across the  state.  So, there's  a supplemental request                                                               
     in  the 2008  capital budget  to fund  the state's  share of                                                               
     that study that I think  was announced this week or released                                                               
     this week.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
2:08:24 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  DOOGAN noted  the committee  has heard  testimony                                                               
that DOT&PF  is building a lot  of projects, such as  bike trails                                                               
and sidewalks, and  asked where those projects fit  into the 2030                                                               
Plan.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN  answered  those  projects   are  considered  to  be                                                               
ancillary  parts  of the  highway  system.   DOT&PF  occasionally                                                               
builds them in  a different right-of-way but  those are generally                                                               
transferred  to local  governments,  such as  trail systems  that                                                               
follow green belts.  He stated:                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
     But, by  and large, the trails  that we build that  are part                                                               
     of  the   highway  system,  they   are  just  part   of  our                                                               
     responsibility  and they  are actually  talked about  in the                                                               
     plan.  There is discussion of  them.  In fact, internally we                                                               
     ask  ourselves are  we doing  a good  enough job  of keeping                                                               
     track of them  because right now all of  our asset inventory                                                               
     tools  are  focused on  the  highway  itself.   They  aren't                                                               
     focused on those other features so we think this new video                                                                 
     log tool will allow us to do a better job of getting the                                                                   
     grips of just how many miles of this and that that we own.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
2:09:49 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE DOOGAN asked how he  would find out what DOT&PF is                                                               
doing  to maintain  sidewalks and  trails  associated with  state                                                               
maintained roadways.   He asked if  those funds would be  part of                                                               
the giant maintenance fund for roads statewide.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN said that is how  it works; those funds would be part                                                               
of the  highway operating budget.   DOT&PF's Highway  Safety Plan                                                               
identifies the importance of clearing  those trails and sidewalks                                                               
for safety reasons.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
2:11:04 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR JOHANSEN asked whether those numbers are separated out.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN replied trails and  highway maintenance funds are not                                                               
separated;  they  are both  part  of  the same  operating  budget                                                               
because the same equipment and workforce is used.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE DOOGAN  said he was  informed that  typically, the                                                               
equipment DOT&PF uses  to clear roadways cannot be  used to clear                                                               
pathways and  that in the  Municipality of Anchorage,  DOT&PF has                                                               
no equipment to keep pathways cleared.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN  agreed it is  fair to say  DOT&PF could do  a better                                                               
job.   DOT&PF managers  say they  do what  they can  within their                                                               
budgets.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
2:12:35 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  SALMON asked  for information  from DOT&PF  about                                                               
improving  the [airstrip]  in  Red Devil  by  adding lights,  for                                                               
example.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN said  he would refer that question to  the new deputy                                                               
commissioner of  aviation who  will be  on board  in a  couple of                                                               
days.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SALMON  said the lack  of improvements could  be a                                                               
matter of life and death.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN said  DOT&PF has been trying to bring  airports up to                                                               
the minimum  3,300 foot standard in  many areas of the  state and                                                               
is now addressing the most difficult projects.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  JOHANSEN  acknowledged  that  a  representative  from  the                                                               
aviation division will address the committee next Thursday.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  SALMON said  the  improvements  should be  fairly                                                               
simple and have been on the books for a long time.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
2:14:17 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JOHNSON  indicated that  his district  has several                                                               
state  roads  and asked  if  municipalities  are compensated  for                                                               
clearing trails adjacent to those roads.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN   said  DOT&PF  has  cross   agreements  and  shared                                                               
responsibilities with  municipalities so that, for  example, if a                                                               
municipality  clears trails  along state  roads, DOT&PF  will use                                                               
its  equipment  to clear  certain  city  roads.   He  said  those                                                               
agreements are  typically in  writing; DOT&PF  is trying  to make                                                               
them formal in all cases.  He continued his presentation:                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
     On Slide  5, the  only thing  this slide  is trying  to show                                                               
     you, these are  all indexed to 100 at the  time of statehood                                                               
     that our  population has about  tripled since  statehood but                                                               
     our use of the roadways in  terms of EMT or vehicle miles of                                                               
     travel and the number of  vehicles registered have both gone                                                               
     up  three  times   faster  than  population.     This  is  a                                                               
     remarkable  statistic  when  you consider  the  fraction  of                                                               
     Alaska that it  is really "unroaded."  You've  got almost 30                                                               
     percent of the state's population not  on a road system.  We                                                               
     actually have some of the  highest registration of vehicles.                                                               
     I think  we have more vehicles  than we have people  in this                                                               
     state, which is  an unusual trend.  In most  states it's the                                                               
     other way around.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
2:15:59 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
     I think  I won't  belabor Slide  6.   You've seen  a similar                                                               
     slide in  the presentation last  week.  The price  of things                                                               
     is going  up and it's going  up in Alaska faster  than it is                                                               
     elsewhere in the  United States.  That has  just played into                                                               
     what is happening  to the dollars and what they  are able to                                                               
     achieve.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
     On  Slide 7  - no  surprise here.   We're  heavily dependent                                                               
     upon federal receipts.  You can  see those three bands.  The                                                               
     top two bands  have not changed that much.   Their thickness                                                               
     is about  the same over  several years, whereas  the federal                                                               
     band is where all of the growth  has been.  For a state that                                                               
     relies  so  extensively  on   federal  funds,  if  something                                                               
     happens to that source of funds,  we are clearly at risk and                                                               
     there's a lot  of discussion that that could  happen.  There                                                               
     could be changes.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR JOHANSEN  asked where he  can find  a list of  the revenues                                                               
for the remainder of the roads.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN clarified  the bands  do not  represent revenue  for                                                               
roads  because Alaska  has no  dedicated fund  for that  purpose.                                                               
Revenues  for roads  from  registration fees  and  gas taxes  are                                                               
deposited into  the general  fund.   Funds are  then appropriated                                                               
from  the general  fund for  the  operating costs  of the  marine                                                               
highway and aviation  systems and roads.  The red  band shows the                                                               
operating  cost  appropriations.    He told  members  the  amount                                                               
deposited into  the general fund  from registration fees  and gas                                                               
taxes is  very close to  the amount  appropriated for roads.   He                                                               
pointed out  Alaska is  the only  state without  a transportation                                                               
fund of some sort.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE FAIRCLOUGH commented:                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
     Following  up  on  Representative Johnson's  comments  about                                                               
     personal responsibility inside  of particular municipalities                                                               
     or regions in  Alaska, I noticed that  it's mentioned inside                                                               
     of 2030 about increasing or  looking to local communities to                                                               
     match.  Is there any  way to "incentivize" local communities                                                               
     to qualify faster  for highway federal dollars  coming in by                                                               
     coming up  with more of  a local match?   Is that  inside of                                                               
     your strategy?                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
2:19:11 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN  replied  that is  considered  under  DOT&PF's  STIP                                                               
selection criteria.   Communities  that contribute more  than the                                                               
required match are awarded more points.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE FAIRCLOUGH asked,  "But it is true  that under the                                                               
STIP  that we  put roads  or  any other  transportation modes  in                                                               
without any kind of local community match."                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN said DOT&PF does but several years ago the                                                                          
Legislature included language that requires local communities to                                                                
provide a match for projects.  He explained:                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
     How our  policy works is,  we kind of  look at the  class of                                                               
     road.     Roads  are  characterized   by  a   scheme  called                                                               
     functional  class.   They start  at the  top with  the very,                                                               
     very high level  roads.  The primary  arterials, which would                                                               
     be the NHS  and the major arterials in a  community that you                                                               
     can drive  here in town  - Tudor Road, Glenn  Highway, would                                                               
     all be  arterials.  As  you move down the  functional class,                                                               
     you move  into what are called  collectors, major collectors                                                               
     and minor  collectors and  then eventually  you get  to what                                                               
     are  called local  roads.    Every road  in  the state  gets                                                               
     classified under this system.  The  DOT does it but we do it                                                               
     under  strict guidelines  and the  oversight of  the Federal                                                               
     Highway  Administration who  requires that  we produce  this                                                               
     functional class study.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
     So our policy says major  collector and above, regardless of                                                               
     ownership,  the state  will match  because those  really are                                                               
     roads that serve broad state  interests.  They carry a heavy                                                               
     amount of traffic.   In fact, one  way to look at  it is our                                                               
     major collectors and our arterials,  I've got the statistics                                                               
     right  here, represent  30  percent of  our  road miles  but                                                               
     they're carrying  about 80 to  90 percent of our  traffic in                                                               
     the  state.   They  clearly are  where  the economy  occurs.                                                               
     They  are where  our state,  you know,  our economy  wins or                                                               
     doesn't win when those roads are well maintained.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
     So there's  a very, very  high interest in  those regardless                                                               
     of  ownership.   Roads  below that  threshold,  we start  to                                                               
     require  a  local  match  to  participate.    I  should  add                                                               
     historically, federal  aid dollars  have never been  able to                                                               
     go below major collector -  that has always been the federal                                                               
     scheme  and  in  49  other states  it  remains  the  federal                                                               
     scheme.   Only in  Alaska are we  eligible to  spend federal                                                               
     dollars on the  lower tiers of the  functional class system.                                                               
     It's good  on one  hand because it  allows village  roads to                                                               
     use these dollars  and local roads in  general, whether they                                                               
     be village  or suburban  or even  urban.   But it's  the old                                                               
     adage.   When everything  is a priority,  then nothing  is a                                                               
     priority.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
2:21:53 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  FAIRCLOUGH   commented  that   DOT&PF's  criteria                                                               
pointing  system  inside  of  the regulatory  side  of  the  code                                                               
provides higher points.   She asked the amount  of the percentage                                                               
match.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN said  that depends  on the  apportionment of  funds,                                                               
however, in general the match is about 9 percent.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE FAIRCLOUGH  asserted that  a community that  has a                                                               
10 percent match would score higher.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN  agreed that  for every  few percentage  points above                                                               
the minimum, a community would get extra points.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  NEUMAN requested  information  on DOT&PF's  point                                                               
system and  for information about whether  those communities have                                                               
direct access  to the federal  funds or  whether they must  go to                                                               
DOT&PF.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
2:22:57 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN said  he would provide the  point system information.                                                               
In response  to the second  question, he said federal  funds flow                                                               
to DOT&PF, which is responsible  for deciding what projects those                                                               
funds  should   be  used   for.     DOT&PF  also   has  fiduciary                                                               
responsibility  for local  government projects  that use  federal                                                               
dollars.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  JOHNSON  expressed  concern about  an  actual  or                                                               
perceived overbuilding  of roads in Anchorage  because some roads                                                               
have been  built to  a higher standard  than the  traffic merits.                                                               
He questioned  whether the possibility  of receiving  funds might                                                               
motivate a community to overbuild roads.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN   replied  money  does   not  drive   the  standard.                                                               
Standards for state roads are  determined by the state; standards                                                               
for municipal roads are determined  by the municipality.  He said                                                               
the Municipality  of Anchorage's  standards include  factors such                                                               
as providing  space for snow  removed, or for  wider intersection                                                               
lanes to  allow semi-tractor trucks  to turn.   He said  there is                                                               
tension  among  different  user  groups  but  the  standards  are                                                               
decided by the road owner, not the funding source.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
2:25:11 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  JOHNSON  asked  whether a  major  collector  road                                                               
scores  higher  so   that  an  applicant  might   design  a  road                                                               
improvement  project as  a  major collector  road  to score  more                                                               
points.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN  said DOT&PF controls  the decision to build  a major                                                               
collector  road depending  on the  area  it serves  and based  on                                                               
national criteria.   He noted the group that  requests funds does                                                               
not  determine functional  class.   That is  determined using  an                                                               
independent review.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
2:26:53 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SALMON  asked if any  major roads are  included in                                                               
the 2030 Plan, such as the Stampede Road.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN  responded DOT&PF  has proposed new  roads only  if a                                                               
new source of funding has been established.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SALMON asked  if federal money is  included in the                                                               
2030 Plan for a [road] to the Pebble Mine if it is developed.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN  commented the  Southwest Alaska  Transportation Plan                                                               
states  a possible  need  for  a road  from  Cook  Inlet down  to                                                               
Chignik and  possibly farther  south.  It  also says  three small                                                               
segments should be  focused on now.   That  plan, done five years                                                               
ago, took  into account limited funding.   He pointed out  one of                                                               
those roads, the  Iliamna Nondalton Road, has  become a lightning                                                               
rod for people fearful of the mine's development.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
2:28:48 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN  noted public  support for  that road  was originally                                                               
very strong and is now quite mixed because of the Pebble Mine.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  KELLER  said  the Matanuska-Susitna  Borough  has                                                               
been asking  that he and  Representative Neuman work on  a method                                                               
so that  the borough  can use  its portion  of matching  funds to                                                               
affect the timeline  and planning process.  He  noted the Borough                                                               
has built  a connector  but cannot get  access to  the Knik-Goose                                                               
Bay Road because of a timing issue.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN  repeated DOT&PF is  prepared to fund roads  that are                                                               
major  collectors or  above, regardless  of ownership.   DOT&PF's                                                               
matching  fund policy  also applies  to transit  projects because                                                               
transit projects serve a group of  users that often have no other                                                               
means  of transportation.   He  said  DOT&PF staff  has had  many                                                               
policy  discussions  on  the topic.    The  Legislature  directed                                                               
DOT&PF to hold the line firm a few years ago.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  KELLER  asked if  a  mechanism  exists whereby  a                                                               
community can  affect a project's timeline  by contributing local                                                               
money.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN said a community  can affect the timeline through the                                                               
scoring process.   He commented that the Mat-Su  Borough has been                                                               
a leader in coming  to the table to deal with  its road needs, as                                                               
have Juneau and Anchorage.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
2:31:52 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  JOHANSEN noted  he  would like  to  bring the  committee's                                                               
attention   back  to   the   presentation  after   Representative                                                               
Fairclough asks her question.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE FAIRCLOUGH stated:                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
     Mr.  Chairman,   it  was   in  response   to  Representative                                                               
     Johnson's inquiry  about ...  projects spending  more money.                                                               
     That does happen on a local  level.  Local plans can, inside                                                               
     of the  process, at least  in the community of  Anchorage we                                                               
     looked at trails  or amenities on the side of  the road, and                                                               
     I  believe  inside of  some  sub-criteria  for the  National                                                               
     Highway System's - I think  there's some kind of demarcation                                                               
     for a  5 percent for  amenities alongside the road  and then                                                               
     Anchorage chose to  increase that to a  higher percentage so                                                               
                                      th                                                                                        
     if you look at  a roadway like 15   Avenue, some feel that's                                                               
     overdressed, some  feel that's  a nice  way to  slow traffic                                                               
     down by  those additional amenities  and do that  so dollars                                                               
     can be  ate up.   It doesn't necessarily change  the project                                                               
     out but  it does  happen.   And then -  and it's  usually by                                                               
     community request  in the area,  it's not DOT coming  in and                                                               
     saying  let's  do  more.     It  is  local  communities  and                                                               
     individual groups asking for amenity changes.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
     And then  in response to  Representative Keller, one  of the                                                               
     successes that we had at a  local level was when you look at                                                               
     mega-projects,  if  there's  any  way  to  bust  those  into                                                               
     smaller  projects.     I  thought  that  we   were  able  to                                                               
     facilitate   for  the   first  time   ever  private   sector                                                               
     contributions in the  form of Fred Meyer,  who actually came                                                               
     in  and, to  advance their  project, we  splintered off  the                                                               
     Glenn Highway  project that hasn't  gone forward  as quickly                                                               
     and  were able  to  provide local  community match  actually                                                               
     from the  private sector to  come in, instead of  bonding or                                                               
     others.   So,  DOT has  been responsive  when people  try to                                                               
     step up and save the state money, per se.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
2:33:58 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN continued his presentation:                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
     Slide 8 - slide 8 is  where we essentially have added up the                                                               
     cost   of  ownership   for  these   three  major   modes  of                                                               
     transportation broken  down into,  essentially, the  cost of                                                               
     improving  that  system,  be   it  highways  or  ferries  or                                                               
     aviation.   We call  that system development.   The  cost of                                                               
     life cycle management,  which is simply the cost  of being a                                                               
     good  steward to  the  things  you already  own,  if you  do                                                               
     proper  life cycle  management,  you preserve  an asset  and                                                               
     actually lower  your total  costs in  the future  because it                                                               
     lasts longer.   It  is said that  $1 in  pavement management                                                               
     expenditures will save $4 of  rehabilitation in the not-too-                                                               
     distant future, so  you spend a dollar now or  you can spend                                                               
     four later.  Same thing with  bridges.  And then the cost of                                                               
     routine maintenance, and  if you look at  the highway bridge                                                               
     system, it's  over a billion  dollars to be  full ownership.                                                               
     This is a bottoms-up analysis.   These numbers were really -                                                               
     they spent  a lot of time  on consultant data in  getting to                                                               
     these numbers.  They are all  documented.  They come from as                                                               
     much data as we can bring to the table.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
     The same  for marine  highways:  the  cost of  managing that                                                               
     system  is  about  $154  million   a  year  including  fleet                                                               
     additions or replacement  and refurbishment, recertification                                                               
     costs  per year,  working  on the  terminals,  and then  the                                                               
     [operation & maintenance]  O&M cost.  And  then finally, for                                                               
     aviation you  see it's  about $223  million to  operate that                                                               
     system, to be the owner  of that system, including bettering                                                               
     the system as well as maintaining what you have.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
     I want  to talk a  little bit about that  system development                                                               
     cost on  highways in the  next slide that  we come up  to on                                                               
     Slide 9.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
2:35:33 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN continued his presentation:                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
     This is where  we talk about a set  of strategic priorities.                                                               
     You could  say it's  the most  important of  a list  of very                                                               
     important projects.  We knew going  in we couldn't  take the                                                               
     full $10  or $12  billion and just  say build  that, because                                                               
     it's completely  off the table in  terms of funding.   So we                                                               
     looked  at ...  I'd say  the most  critical projects  to the                                                               
     state and  I think if you  put 10 people in  the room, you'd                                                               
     probably get 80percent  agreement on the list  - that people                                                               
     would  agree -  at least  80 percent  - in  common projects.                                                               
     There will be  a few projects that people say  no, take that                                                               
     off and add  this.  That's just the nature  of our political                                                               
     process.   I think  it was a  fair look.   We talked  to our                                                               
     regions  about  this.   We  looked  at  it and,  again,  the                                                               
     important message  here is  not which  projects make  up the                                                               
     5.5 billion.   The important message is if you  wanted to do                                                               
     $5.5 billion worth  of work in the future, how  long will it                                                               
     take you  to do that  with current resources.   You're going                                                               
     to find  out, keep this 5.5  billion in mind as  a straw man                                                               
     list without  agreeing to  what's in it,  that it  will show                                                               
     how long  it takes  to get it  done under  different funding                                                               
     scenarios in a later slide.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
     So, as  you can see, there's  a very small amount  of money,                                                               
     less than 10 percent for  new roads.  Almost everything else                                                               
     is some  form of  standards, upgrade,  or an  urban capacity                                                               
     improvement  including  Anchorage,   Mat-Su,  Fairbanks  and                                                               
     other urban capacity.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
2:37:10 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN continued:                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
     So on  Slide 10, which is  unnumbered - I'm sorry,  it looks                                                               
     like the numbering went away here  for some reason - but the                                                               
     Alaska financing slide,  there's some risk to  rely upon the                                                               
     federal program growth.   I could talk at  length about what                                                               
     that   risk   is,   but  everything   I'm   learning   about                                                               
     reauthorization gives me  pause.  If you kind  of, you know,                                                               
     right now  with [petroleum production profits  tax] PPT just                                                               
     passing,  we  look  pretty  good but  when  this  was  being                                                               
     written, PPT wasn't  passed yet and everyone  was saying you                                                               
     know, just  a few years  in the  future with the  decline of                                                               
     production at Prudhoe Bay, oil  revenues don't look all that                                                               
     healthy.   Some  people would  say that's  still true,  even                                                               
     with PPT,  is that 6,  7 percent  decline at Prudhoe  Bay is                                                               
     really going  to come -  we'll have  to come to  grips with.                                                               
     So, the  prognosis for general  fund revenue, long  term, is                                                               
     not great.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
     We  also have  the issue  that we've  never had  a dedicated                                                               
     fund for  transportation - constitutional reality  - we just                                                               
     haven't done  it.  I think  as a state, we've  tried to look                                                               
     to  the federal  purse  as much  as  possible although  it's                                                               
     interesting,  in early  statehood  we  Alaskans were  pretty                                                               
     brave.  We went from a 5 to  an 8 cent gas tax increase at a                                                               
     time that made  it the highest tax in the  land in the early                                                               
     '60s.   That stayed the same  and every other state  now has                                                               
     passed us up.   We stood pat and everyone  else has run past                                                               
     us.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE NEUMAN  asked if DOT&PF  is looking at  changes to                                                               
the gas tax.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN said  it is not.  He explained  the Governor's Alaska                                                               
Transportation Fund would generate about  $50 million per year at                                                               
the start.   The gas tax would  have to increase from  8 cents to                                                               
20 cents  to raise $50  million.  Alaska's small  population base                                                               
makes it  difficult to generate adequate  funding.  Additionally,                                                               
people  see a  surplus  in  the bank.    He  believes the  Alaska                                                               
Transportation Fund is a fresh idea with merit.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
2:39:34 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE NEUMAN commented:                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
     So when I'm  looking at this and I'm reading  the 2030 Let's                                                               
     Get Moving  Plan that's  laid out, this  big plan,  in these                                                               
     slides we're  trying to keep this  $5.5 billion in mind.   I                                                               
     don't see  how we're going to  get that and how  we're going                                                               
     to  pay for  the  numbers  that we  see  in here,  correlate                                                               
     equally into here.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN  said that will  become clear in  2 or 3  more pages.                                                               
He stressed that a lot of  state owned and local projects are not                                                               
on that list.  The list is a  subset of needs but it leaves a lot                                                               
of projects unfunded.  He then continued his presentation.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     So,  the  top  of  the  next page  -  The  Alaska  Financing                                                               
     Realities.  Most of the  new financing strategies being used                                                               
     nationally, and there are a bunch  of them now that are kind                                                               
     of coming  to the front, just  don't make a lot  of sense in                                                               
     our state.   There's just  an awful  lot of tendency  now to                                                               
     look  to  tolls.   Tolls  are  being  used  - the  State  of                                                               
     Washington is  about to toll  an existing freeway.   They're                                                               
     also going to toll an existing  bridge and they are going to                                                               
     toll  the bridge  several years  before they  rebuild it  so                                                               
     they are starting  to toll projects before they  even do the                                                               
     work that the public is paying  for, which is a new concept.                                                               
     In the past you got -  once something was built, you got the                                                               
     toll but  you didn't  get the  toll well  in advance  of the                                                               
     construction.   They're going to have  a $6 toll to  cross a                                                               
     one mile  bridge in the  State of Washington that's  been in                                                               
     existence since  the '60s.   And they've concluded  it's the                                                               
     only way they will get it  built.  All other funding sources                                                               
     have dried up.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JOHNSON pointed out that the State of Washington                                                                 
brought Alaska the container tax.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN added the Port of Long Beach also adopted a                                                                         
container tax so that idea is beginning to leap frog around the                                                                 
country.  He continued his presentation:                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
     Many other taxes, you've got what  are called - the State of                                                               
     Colorado built a  freeway but built no on and  off ramps and                                                               
     if your area wanted an on  and off ramp to use that freeway,                                                               
     to get  to it and  get off it,  to get customers  there, you                                                               
     had  to do  an LID,  a local  improvement district,  and you                                                               
     would pay not only for the cost  of the on and off ramp, but                                                               
     you are going to pay for  part of the original investment in                                                               
     the freeway.  So that was how Colorado did it.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SALMON asked if the 8 cent [gas] tax is still                                                                    
being charged.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN explained it is but it is deposited into the general                                                                
fund so there is no way of knowing for what it paid.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE NEUMAN stated:                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
     With that,  could Representative Salmon  find out so  he can                                                               
     get to the  people in Sleetmute how much is  the DOT putting                                                               
     into that airport,  I mean, what type of planning  so he has                                                               
     the  capability to  go to  DOT and  get that  information to                                                               
     provide it to his communities?                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN replied, "Absolutely."                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
2:43:13 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN continued his presentation:                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
     So, in  general, if we scan  the country and we  look at all                                                               
     of these  - these are all  basically one form or  another of                                                               
     user  pay  concepts.     None  of  them   really  look  very                                                               
     promising.  There  are a few spots where we  might use them.                                                               
     I mean we do  use user pay on the ferries.   We use user pay                                                               
     on our  Whittier tunnel and we  are proposing to use  a user                                                               
     pay  concept on  the [Knik  Arm Bridge  and Toll  Authority]                                                               
     KABATA project but I just don't  think you are going to find                                                               
     it works  on say, the  [Richardson] Highway with 500  cars a                                                               
     day.   It's just not  a viable, practical alternative.   So,                                                               
     we're  really  not  recommending that  those  techniques  be                                                               
     considered in our state.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE DOOGAN asked if the  user pay concept works on the                                                               
Whittier road.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN said  the state  supplements the  [maintenance] cost                                                               
with several million dollars each year.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE DOOGAN  asked whether  the user pay  concept works                                                               
anywhere in Alaska.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN said the user pay  system pays for about one-third of                                                               
the  total cost  of  the ferry  system.   The  KABATA project  is                                                               
designed  so that  user  pay  would cover  the  majority of  that                                                               
project's cost.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE DOOGAN  noted the user pay  system always proposes                                                               
to pay  the full  cost of  a project but  seems to  be more  of a                                                               
supplemental funding source.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN agreed.   As  an example  he noted  the Dallas  Toll                                                               
Authority is  charging 11 cents per  mile.  He stated  Alaska has                                                               
high  construction costs  and a  low population,  so these  ideas                                                               
work  elsewhere but  may not  work in  Alaska.   The federal  aid                                                               
program is good  to Alaska because Alaska receives  a much larger                                                               
share than it contributes.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  NEUMAN said  he  has heard  a  number of  funding                                                               
options from  DOT&PF but  it is  not proposing  to raise  the gas                                                               
tax.                                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN said  in addition to the  Alaska Transportation Fund,                                                               
DOT&PF  is considering  a return  to  the Local  Service Roads  &                                                               
Trails (LSR&T) program.  That  program is general funded and uses                                                               
dollars in a very cost-effective way.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
2:46:39 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN informed  members  the LSR&T  program  began in  the                                                               
1970s and  expired in the 1980s.  It is still in  statute but has                                                               
not been funded for 20 years.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  JOHANSEN said  Mr. Ottesen's  presentation  sounds like  a                                                               
sponsor  statement   for  the   [transportation  fund]   bill  in                                                               
committee.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN  pointed out  the 2030 plan  was written  not knowing                                                               
the transportation fund bill would be coming.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
2:47:22 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN continued his presentation:                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
     The  slide here  at the  bottom,  the two  bar graphs,  this                                                               
     simply  tallies  up the  cost  of  ownership for  the  three                                                               
     systems  that I  showed on  that table  previously.   It's a                                                               
     little over  1.4 billion.   That's really the cost  of being                                                               
     the  owner  of  these   systems,  of  maintaining  them  and                                                               
     bettering them  at a sustained pace.   And then you  look at                                                               
     the total amount  of revenue that we receive  and it's about                                                               
     half of  that or  about $700 million,  round numbers.   Some                                                               
     systems, if  you look at  the aviation revenues  and compare                                                               
     it  to  the aviation  cost  of  ownership, they  are  pretty                                                               
     close, just a little bit short.   If you look at the federal                                                               
     aid highway  receipts compared to  the highway needs,  it is                                                               
     well under 50  percent.  So, different  systems are situated                                                               
     differently  in terms  of  how well  they  are being  funded                                                               
     today.  And  I think that's an important  take away message.                                                               
     While the  state as  a whole  has about  half the  amount of                                                               
     money we need, the degree of  need is not the same among the                                                               
     different modes, highways and  marine highways being the two                                                               
     that are most wanting for funds.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR JOHANSEN  commented, "So  our aviators  are taking  care of                                                               
themselves."                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN said they are but  he would love to see DOT&PF figure                                                               
out a way to finish about 12 airports.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
2:48:40 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  SALMON asked  if  DOT&PF works  closely with  the                                                               
Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA).                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN said DOT&PF is  trying to collaborate with the tribes                                                               
to  get Indian  Road Reservation  System funds  and has  had some                                                               
success but  needs to  make more  of an effort.   DOT&PF  is also                                                               
coordinating with  the Denali Commission  to work on  projects in                                                               
several villages.   He said  projects in rural Alaska  are funded                                                               
from  three  or  four  sources   including  state  funds,  Denali                                                               
Commission funds, BIA funds, and coastal village funds.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
2:50:00 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR JOHANSEN said that question  parallels a question raised by                                                               
Representative  Fairclough last  week  about using  funds to  the                                                               
greatest extent.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN pointed out each pot  of money has a different set of                                                               
rules,  which  sometimes creates  a  challenge  on projects  with                                                               
different funding sources.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
2:50:51 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN continued with his presentation:                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
     This  slide here  with the  two  graphs that  has the  three                                                               
     arrows on  it, they just show  you that how you  bridge that                                                               
     gap.   The simple way to  think of it is  you constrain your                                                               
     needs  or you  prioritize differently  or you  increase your                                                               
     revenue  or  you  do  combinations   of  those  three  major                                                               
     approaches.  We are proposing to  do a little bit of each of                                                               
     those  as you'll  see  as we  get into  the  details of  the                                                               
     recommendation.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
     The first  - and we then  broke it down and  there are three                                                               
     strategies here,  we could  have made more  but I  think the                                                               
     three strategies represent a pretty  good cross-section of a                                                               
     spectrum of strategies.   One is that you  maintain your own                                                               
     annual  life cycle  management funding  levels at  about the                                                               
     percentage  you do  now, leaving  some money  left over  for                                                               
     system development.  Why is  that important?  Well, one, the                                                               
     public  clamors for  system  development  perhaps more  than                                                               
     anything else.   Come  and fix  our road.   Widen  our road.                                                               
     Make it better.   It also is part of  our current economy of                                                               
     the  consulting community,  the construction  community and,                                                               
     in fact, the  DOT design staffs all come to  rely upon that.                                                               
     So, if  you stop doing that  thing, then all those  parts of                                                               
     the economy are left without a funding source.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
     What  that  means is  there  is  some deterioration  of  the                                                               
     system  because we're  not maintaining  it, we're  not doing                                                               
     life cycle management  steps to the level  necessary so some                                                               
     of your condition  of the system starts to go  down and that                                                               
     $5.5 billion list of projects  - that very narrow short list                                                               
     of a  much bigger set  of needs wouldn't be  completed until                                                               
     about the year 2041.  That's a  long time from now - 35 some                                                               
     years, 30, 40 years.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE DOOGAN  asked Mr.  Ottesen to  distinguish between                                                               
the  operations  and  maintenance  segment from  the  life  cycle                                                               
management segment.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN  explained that operations and  maintenance are tasks                                                               
done annually  to keep  the system intact,  such as  fixing guard                                                               
rails or snow  plowing.  Life cycle management  tasks prolong the                                                               
life  of  a facility,  such  as  cleaning  culverts or  fixing  a                                                               
cracked ceiling.  Those tasks  are major efforts and are DOT&PF's                                                               
major expenditure area.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
2:53:19 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN  compared it  to replacing  a roof  on a  home rather                                                               
than allowing the leak to ruin it.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE DOOGAN asked if the  distinguishing factor is that                                                               
a  considerable   amount  of  money   is  spent  on   life  cycle                                                               
management.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN affirmed  that  is  correct.   He  pointed out  that                                                               
DOT&PF now  takes $50  million out  of the STIP  each year  to do                                                               
life cycle  projects.  Those  projects were previously  done with                                                               
general funds.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  DOOGAN  asked  if the  federal  government  knows                                                               
DOT&PF is doing that.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN  said it does;  preventive maintenance  is considered                                                               
to  be an  eligible cost,  operations and  maintenance costs  are                                                               
not.   He said  DOT&PF walks  a fine  line between  bettering the                                                               
system and keeping it there.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
2:54:39 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN continued his presentation:                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
     Another scenario is  let's focus on life  cycle management -                                                               
     excuse  me,  operations   and  maintenance,  this  optimized                                                               
     operations  and   maintenance  at  the  expense   of  system                                                               
     development and  so deterioration  slows, you have  a slower                                                               
     increase in the life cycle  backlog of projects but suddenly                                                               
     now your ability  to address that set  of strategic projects                                                               
     has gone from  2041 to 2064.  You're talking  about almost a                                                               
     life time.   It is politically almost  impossible for people                                                               
     to expect  to wait that long  for needs they can  see today.                                                               
     You're talking  about asking  them to  wait almost  60 years                                                               
     for a  set of needs.   It would  be very, very  difficult, I                                                               
     think, for  the department  and I think  for people  in your                                                               
     seats to see  that policy implemented.  It's sort  of a non-                                                               
     starter right out of the gate.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
     The  third  scenario  is  sort  of  equally  a  non-starter.                                                               
     Instead, you  optimize on  life cycle  management.   You put                                                               
     all  of your  money,  as  much as  possible,  to manage  the                                                               
     system we  have, better our  ferries, better our  roads, not                                                               
     improve them  to the  point that  you're widening  them, but                                                               
     you keep them  smooth, you keep them maintained.   You can't                                                               
     even  perform operation  and  maintenance  at the  necessary                                                               
     level with the  dollars we get and there's no  money left to                                                               
     mow down  the backlog of that  $5.5 billion list.   In other                                                               
     words,  it's  not  being  through   infinity.    This  is  a                                                               
     completely non-starter  from the standpoint of  trying to do                                                               
     a little bit of everything to keep all the needs addressed.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
2:56:07 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE DOOGAN  referred to  the second scenario  and said                                                               
if system  development went  bottom up,  he could  understand the                                                               
argument that  DOT&PF could not wait  much longer.  He  asked how                                                               
confident  Mr. Ottesen  is that  system  development is  included                                                               
because  citizens  are clamoring  for  projects  and not  because                                                               
traffic engineers like the idea.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN replied  in Anchorage,  for  example, the  municipal                                                               
projects and  the AMATS long  range plan underwent a  very public                                                               
process to  create the list of  projects.  DOT&PF did  not change                                                               
the list.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  DOOGAN said  he  was not  referring  to what  the                                                               
AMATS  board or  traffic planners  want.   He questioned  whether                                                               
DOT&PF  has  given significant  consideration  to  scenario 2  or                                                               
whether a plan "goes out the window" the minute someone squawks.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN replied:                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
     I see the downside as being so  large in my own mind that we                                                               
     would never be able to  politically implement it.  You would                                                               
     almost  be shutting  off whole  sectors of  the economy  and                                                               
     just telling them  that your services are  no longer needed.                                                               
     That would  be one almost immediate  consequence of adopting                                                               
     that.   You  would be  telling communities  that your  needs                                                               
     will  simply have  to  wait  for a  very  long  time.   That                                                               
     constrained list  of projects  is now out  to the  2060 time                                                               
     period.   That, too,  would, I  think, have  consequences in                                                               
     the political support for one approach versus another.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE DOOGAN clarified that he is questioning DOT&PF's                                                                 
definition of needs in that statement.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN said he understood.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
2:58:55 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN continued his presentation:                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
     I think  I've given you  kind of  the three scenarios  and I                                                               
     know time  is kind of  short.  I  want to just  talk quickly                                                               
     about our national transportation  investment policy and how                                                               
     we stack up around the world,  not only around the world but                                                               
     around the country as a state.   I think it's an eye opener.                                                               
     It was for me when we developed the numbers.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
     If you look at Europe, the  old continent as we love to call                                                               
     it from  our perspective,  they are doing  massive projects,                                                               
     projects that  are really  much bigger  in scale  and scope,                                                               
     everything  from the  tunnel  to  enormously large  bridges,                                                               
     tunnels,  etcetera,  building high  speed  rail.   They  are                                                               
     spending  about   3.5  percent  of  their   [gross  domestic                                                               
     product] GDP  on transportation.   Keep that number  in mind                                                               
     as you go through the slides.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
     If you  look at Asia,  it's even more  dramatic.  Asia  is -                                                               
     China is building  an expressway system that  will be larger                                                               
     when  it's done  than the  U.S.  interstate.   They plan  on                                                               
     building  it  in  a  faster  time period  than  we  did  the                                                               
     interstate.  They and Japan  and India are all building high                                                               
     speed rail.   In fact,  one takeaway  number is -  right now                                                               
     there are  13 nations with high  speed rail.  If  the United                                                               
     States doesn't  get something going here  pretty quickly, we                                                               
     will not  be fourteenth.   We will be later  than fourteenth                                                               
     so we're  way behind in  that particular technology.   China                                                               
     is  spending 9  percent of  their  GDP and  India about  3.5                                                               
     percent  of GDP  on transportation  investment.   The United                                                               
     States is spending  as a nation less than 1  percent.  As an                                                               
     AASHTO official said,  we were sitting on  the investment of                                                               
     prior  generations and  neither sustaining  it or  bettering                                                               
     it.  We've just simply sort of stopped that responsibility.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
     We,  as a  state, are  spending  less than  one-half of  one                                                               
     percent of  state GDP  on transportation  and that  makes us                                                               
       th                                                                                                                       
     44  among 50 states  in the nation.  And then if you ask the                                                               
     question well  how do  we stack  up compared  to the  six or                                                               
     seven states most  like us, states with  large geography and                                                               
     a small population base, and there  are seven of them that I                                                               
     identified, we're seventh among seven.   We're at the bottom                                                               
     of that  list too.  So,  even the Wyomings and  the Montanas                                                               
     are outspending us, let alone the bigger states.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE NEUMAN commented:                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
     ...Somewhere in history I remember  somebody saying it's the                                                               
     economy stupid, you  know?  I mean if we  don't take care of                                                               
     that  as  legislators  [indisc.]  we take  into  these  last                                                               
     couple of slides  here, it's so critical as to  the - I mean                                                               
     trying to view  Alaska from the 10,000 foot level  and if we                                                               
     don't have a  transportation system so that we  can grow our                                                               
     economy, whether  it's a [indisc.] as  Representative Salmon                                                               
     talked about or anything that  we're doing, we're at a loss.                                                               
     And  with  our position  in  the  eastern Pacific  Rim,  Ted                                                               
     Stevens   International,    the   third    largest   freight                                                               
     transporter in the  world, you know, with the  polar ice cap                                                               
     receding  and  the  over-the-top route  for  ships,  freight                                                               
     ships coming up through there  and to the Panama Canal, it's                                                               
     only going  to get more  - more busy  for Alaska and  now is                                                               
     the time.   But the question I have for  DOT is DOT prepared                                                               
     to make those  requests to the Legislature to get  us to the                                                               
     point where  we have to get  to this?  You  know, right now,                                                               
     when we're  looking here and  you have Alaska  spending less                                                               
     than one-half  of a  percent on  gross domestic  product and                                                               
                      th                                                                                                        
     we're  ranking 44...    is  DOT  stepping up  to the  plate,                                                               
     coming to  the legislature and  saying this is what  we need                                                               
                                 th                                                                                             
     so that we're not ranking 44?                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN said  DOT&PF is  willing to  introduce the  proposed                                                               
Alaska  Transportation Fund  proposal.   It was  scheduled to  be                                                               
heard  in  the  Senate  Transportation Committee  today  but  was                                                               
delayed.    That   proposal  is  the  first  new   idea  to  fund                                                               
transportation  projects.   He  said  he  believes that  fund  is                                                               
necessary.   He recalled hearing  about the need for  air freight                                                               
capacity   in  Anchorage   during   the  Cowper   Administration.                                                               
Anchorage  had lost  its ability  to serve  the passenger  market                                                               
because airplanes were not stopping  in Anchorage to refuel.  The                                                               
price of  oil was down  to the $9 range  but the state  made that                                                               
investment  and it  started a  trend that  has made  Anchorage an                                                               
economic  success.   He  said  transportation  investment is  the                                                               
foundation to an economy sometimes.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
3:04:41 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR JOHANSEN  stated the transportation fund  legislation is in                                                               
the House Transportation Committee so  members will have a chance                                                               
to discuss it.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE DOOGAN commented:                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
     ... Mr.  Ottesen, I think  part of  the problem I  am having                                                               
     with  this is  that this  presentation takes  a look  at ...                                                               
     what's called  on Slide 9  strategic priorities  for surface                                                               
     transportation.   It is two  different things.  One  is sort                                                               
     of  a consumer  product so,  when you  say demand  driven by                                                               
     urban capacity  is $2 billion  of your $5.5  billion figure,                                                               
     that's basically  drivers want  more roads  so that  sort of                                                               
     treats that as  a consumer product.  Then  there's a billion                                                               
     dollars where we  would have to match federal  standards.  I                                                               
     guess it's  a consumer  project if  we're spending  money to                                                               
     make federal  highway planners happy.   I guess  they're the                                                               
     consumers of  that.  As  you go  down this list,  you really                                                               
     don't  hit a  very big  percentage of  this $5.5  billion as                                                               
     money that has  a direct impact on  economic development and                                                               
     yet, on the other hand, as  we go a little bit farther along                                                               
     in the  slides, suddenly we're talking  about transportation                                                               
     as an  engine of the  economy.  I guess  what I want  to say                                                               
     here is if our consideration  is that we need transportation                                                               
     development  for  economic   development  as  Representative                                                               
     Neuman said,  why such  a big  part of  the price  tag here?                                                               
     Essentially transportation is a consumer product.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN answered:                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
     I understand  why you  are characterizing  it as  a consumer                                                               
     product, but I  think you can equally characterize  it as an                                                               
     economic benefit.   If you look at the new  Elmore Road that                                                               
     just opened, it,  by our estimates, is  saving the customers                                                               
     out there $10  million per year in travel  time, fuel costs,                                                               
     etcetera, just sheer benefits of  the economic advantages of                                                               
     that.  That means those  consumer benefits will pay for that                                                               
     project  in about  three  or four  years,  the entire  state                                                               
     investment.  The problem is  there is no relationship to the                                                               
     benefits being generated and the  state's ability to pay for                                                               
     it.  They're coming from different ...                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE DOOGAN said it will not  pay for that project.  It                                                               
may provide some numbers that offset each other.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN agreed  there  is  no feedback  loop.    He said  in                                                               
communities   with  severe   congestion,  the   business  leaders                                                               
complain that that condition is  affecting the economy because it                                                               
affects delivery of  goods and worker transport.   He pointed out                                                               
the clamor  in Seattle for  new urban transportation  capacity is                                                               
coming  from Microsoft,  Boeing and  the large  employers because                                                               
the traffic problem is affecting their economy.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
3:07:59 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE DOOGAN  agreed that people want  a shorter commute                                                               
and are  willing to  spend someone  else's money  to do  that but                                                               
that  expenditure   differs  from  the  necessity   of  improving                                                               
transportation for economic development.  He stated:                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
     I'm  not  trying to  debate  here.    I'm simply  trying  to                                                               
     clarify  ... if  you take  $5.5 billion  or whatever  it is,                                                               
     which is a lot  of money even here, and if  it's not all one                                                               
     thing, how  much of it  is one thing and  how much of  it is                                                               
     another because I  think that insofar as  the Legislature or                                                               
     the policy makers  here, we might be more  willing to invest                                                               
     in one  thing than  another, if  that's the  question that's                                                               
     put before us.   So, we just  kind of need to  know which is                                                               
     which.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN  asserted each project  brings mixed benefits.   Some                                                               
will  jump start  the  economy, perhaps  some  are more  consumer                                                               
oriented.  He furthered:                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
     The question is then can  we capture some of those benefits.                                                               
     If we make  those benefits, can we capture them  so that the                                                               
     cost  of building  the  improvement is  borne?   That's  the                                                               
     whole idea  behind tolls,  for example.   That's  really the                                                               
     fundamental principal  behind tolls.  People  are willing to                                                               
     pay the toll because they want  to drive a little faster and                                                               
     not see their time  eaten up.  I think some  of these are in                                                               
     here if  you look at, for  example, the special needs.   The                                                               
     gas  line, the  truck weight  restrictions, clearly  have an                                                               
     economic  benefit.   Some  of  those  rail benefits  in  the                                                               
     billion  dollars  there  would  be like  the  Port  McKenzie                                                               
     extension.     That  clearly   has  an   economic  jumpstart                                                               
     characteristic  to it  but your  point is  well taken  and I                                                               
     respect that.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
3:10:09 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN continued his presentation:                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
     Half  a percent  - you  know, in  Alaska we're  collecting a                                                               
     half percent  per mile  if you assume,  and well  actually a                                                               
     little bit  less if  you consume 20  miles per  gallon, it's                                                               
     about 4/10ths  of a penny.   Of  course that's going  to the                                                               
     general fund.   It's  not directly  helping highways  but it                                                               
     gives you  some idea.  But  the cost to drive  for triple As                                                               
     is much, much higher.  It's  50 cents for the standard sedan                                                               
     and it's almost 75 cents for  the pick-up truck or the large                                                               
     SUV.   So  we, as  users of  the transportation  system, are                                                               
     willing to pay a  lot to use it.  We  just aren't willing to                                                               
     pay a  lot for the road  we drive on.   It's sort of  a take                                                               
     away message and  it's sort of interesting.   The system has                                                               
     just  really  been  starved  for  capital,  yet  people  are                                                               
     already paying an awful lot of money to use that road.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
     I've already  given you the  Dallas example and I  wanted to                                                               
     just  talk on  this next  slide about  the constitution  but                                                               
     there clearly is  a legislative mandate that  we provide for                                                               
     the utilization,  development, and settlement of  our lands,                                                               
     use of  our natural resources  in that we also,  through the                                                               
     Legislature,   would    provide   for    those   facilities'                                                               
     improvements and surfaces that make  that possible.  I found                                                               
     myself it  is kind of  useful to read  this and not  only to                                                               
     see the statements.   I'll give you an example.   One of the                                                               
     things we sometimes get criticized  for is, if we propose to                                                               
     build a  road that  might serve a  private interest,  we get                                                               
     criticized by people who  are watching transportation policy                                                               
     yet constitutionally  it is clearly  a mandate that  we will                                                               
     provide  for  the  settlement  of   lands  and  the  use  of                                                               
     resources.   We may,  as a state,  make that  happen through                                                               
     development of facilities.  It's  interesting that the words                                                               
     "transportation"  or   "highways"  are  not  found   in  our                                                               
     constitution  so this  is as  close as  you get  to defining                                                               
     that relationship.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
3:12:28 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN continued:                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
     Kind  of going  back to  the three  scenarios at  the bottom                                                               
     slide here, what is the  most viable scenario?  I've already                                                               
     telegraphed  it, which  is to  maintain O&M  and life  cycle                                                               
     management at  approximately the same  levels and to  try to                                                               
     do it a  little bit more intelligently  to - we do  a lot of                                                               
     what's called "worst  first" in pavement work.   There [are]                                                               
     a lot of national studies that  tell you that worst first is                                                               
     kind of the wrong use of  your dollar.  I think managers are                                                               
     on the horns of a dilemma.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
     Worst first  means if you  have a  limited pot of  money for                                                               
     pavement management and  you spend it on your  three or four                                                               
     worst  roads that  are  so  torn up  they  just  need to  be                                                               
     completely  redone,  the money  doesn't  go  very far.    If                                                               
     instead you  took the  same dollars and  you spread  it over                                                               
     many more  roads extending the  life of their  pavement, you                                                               
     get better payback.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
     The problem  with that  approach is the  people who  live on                                                               
     those  really  bad  roads and  the  representatives  in  the                                                               
     legislature who represent them are  going to be on your case                                                               
     for not  doing those roads first.   So you are  torn between                                                               
     the need  to fix  roads that have  already failed,  which is                                                               
     sort  of  the wrong  use  of  the  money from  a  management                                                               
     standpoint.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
     So, what we're saying  in the plan is we need  to find a way                                                               
     to get out  of worst first, which is what  we're doing right                                                               
     now but the only  way you get out of it is  you have to find                                                               
     an infusion  of dollars  to catch up  on the  pavements that                                                               
     have failed.  One key  number on the National Highway System                                                               
     alone, $300  million of pavement  have reached  their useful                                                               
     life -  that is  they have effectively  failed.   The growth                                                               
     rate  in that  backlog of  pavement is  about $90  million a                                                               
     year.  So,  we're losing about $90 million more  a year each                                                               
     year.   We're only spending  $50 million a year  on pavement                                                               
     management activities and  that's beyond the NHS.   It's the                                                               
     NHS and everything  else so, you can see just  from that one                                                               
     metric that kind of problem is growing, not shrinking.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
3:14:23 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JOHNSON asked whether Mr. Ottesen was talking                                                                    
about the number for Alaska.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN said that is the number for Alaska on the 2,100                                                                     
miles of National Highway System alone.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JOHNSON asked how much of the total miles Alaska                                                                 
is responsible for.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN said he would provide that number for the rest of                                                                   
the state-owned system but DOT&PF does not have good numbers for                                                                
locally-owned roads.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN continued his presentation:                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
     So,  there  is  some  kind  of  focusing  going  on  in  the                                                               
     recommendations.   One is -  the focusing is we  continue to                                                               
     pay attention  to the National  Highway System as  our first                                                               
     priority.  Again, it's where most  of our use of the highway                                                               
     occurs.  It's  where most freight travels.   It's where most                                                               
     people are driving their big  miles, their high speed miles.                                                               
     I lived on  a gravel road in  front of my house  for a long,                                                               
     long  time  and sometimes  it  was  pot-holed, sometimes  it                                                               
     wasn't.  But,  you know, I didn't care that  much because it                                                               
     was only a half a mile and then  I was on a state paved road                                                               
     and life  went on.   So my road can  be in pretty  bad shape                                                               
     and my  commute wasn't  really that  big a  deal.   But when                                                               
     you're driving on  10 or 15 miles a day  of really bad road,                                                               
     it's a different story.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
     So the question  is, if you focus on the  viable roads, what                                                               
     do you  do about that  next tier,  the tier that  you're not                                                               
     focusing  on?   This  is essentially  triage  and triage  is                                                               
     about the  art of making  hard priority choices.   It always                                                               
     leaves something  undone if you understand  that philosophy.                                                               
     The  committee,  the  transition   team  for  DOT,  strongly                                                               
     recommended that we  do exactly this - that we  focus on the                                                               
     NHS first.   I throw  it out with  a bit of  caution because                                                               
     it's like worst  first.  Every time you  direct your dollars                                                               
     here, you're  going to  leave something  undone.   It's that                                                               
     undone component that  raises the question how do  we get to                                                               
     that too.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
3:16:27 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN continued:                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
     So you've seen here on  the next slide the strategic project                                                               
     timeline.   Under  our scenario,  we could  only get  to the                                                               
     $5.5 billion list by 2041.   If we brought more money to the                                                               
     table and focused  on that list, there is how  fast we could                                                               
     accelerate it  at three funding  scenarios: $100,  $200, and                                                               
     $300 million additional  per year.  You can see  if we could                                                               
     get $300 million  a year, we could have that  list done in a                                                               
     decade;  something less,  it  obviously  stretches out  into                                                               
     another 10 years.  So, it's  just a way of understanding how                                                               
     fast additional  money would help  you get to  a prioritized                                                               
     set of needs.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
     The bottom  slide points  out the  obvious.   I think  it is                                                               
     something  that  some  times   gets  forgotten.    Different                                                               
     transportation  systems  in  the  state are  kind  of  in  a                                                               
     different set  of circumstances.   Our state  highway system                                                               
     and  our  rural  airport  system have  no  internal  funding                                                               
     mechanism.   The system managers  are not allowed  to adjust                                                               
     funding,  set  rates,  retain  revenue  -  a  constitutional                                                               
     prohibition.  At  the same time, in the same  state, we have                                                               
     other  transportation systems,  including our  international                                                               
     airport   system,   the   Port  of   Anchorage,   which   is                                                               
     municipality  owned,  but  also   the  Alaska  Railroad  and                                                               
     KABATA, so  three out of  four of  those are also  under the                                                               
     same constitutional  rules but  somehow they're going  to be                                                               
     allowed to set  rates, retain revenue and,  actually in some                                                               
     cases, even raise capital.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE NEUMAN said Mr. Ottesen  mentioned that by statute                                                               
no internal funding  is permitted for highways and  airports.  He                                                               
asked  Mr. Ottesen  if  he  has any  suggestions  to remedy  that                                                               
problem.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN said  he does not.   He said he was  pointing out the                                                               
difference so that  people understand the problem.   He commented                                                               
that he  recently purchased  an airline  ticket and  realized the                                                               
fare contained more  taxes than he will pay in  road taxes in one                                                               
year.    Airports charge  fees  at  every  turn that  make  those                                                               
airports modern,  efficient systems.   He said  a road is  like a                                                               
utility.  There is no hook-up  charge or charge for the degree of                                                               
use.   It  brings traffic  to private  property and  the property                                                               
value goes  up.  Then,  the road needs  to be widened  because of                                                               
that success and  the state must pay for the  enhanced value that                                                               
it created.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
3:20:36 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN  said that is  a complication of the  current system.                                                               
He  then  told  members  that concludes  his  presentation.    He                                                               
pointed out one of the biggest  risks of his recommendation is it                                                               
assumes the  continuation of a high  level of federal funds.   He                                                               
said  he would  like  to talk  to members  about  the bold  ideas                                                               
associated with  the federal reauthorization;  some would  not be                                                               
beneficial to Alaska.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR JOHANSEN asked if members had any final questions.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
[No one responded.]                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR JOHANSEN  asked what would  happen if  DOT&PF inadvertently                                                               
omitted a longstanding DOT&PF policy from the 2030 plan.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
3:22:22 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN responded  DOT&PF experienced  that situation  on an                                                               
Iliamna-Nondalton project.   The state court  found that DOT&PF's                                                               
plan was  not in keeping  with statute because no  cost effective                                                               
analysis was done  for that project.  DOT&PF had  to re-open that                                                               
plan, which was  part of the long range plan.   That process took                                                               
about six months.  The court  allowed DOT&PF to proceed after the                                                               
analysis was  done.   He said  the long  range plan  is typically                                                               
updated every five years and that  it takes about two years to do                                                               
an  update because  an update  requires more  public involvement.                                                               
He said  DOT&PF is now  rushing because  he does not  believe the                                                               
federal rules took into account  some states' election cycles and                                                               
that new  governors would want  to have input into  their states'                                                               
plans.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR JOHANSEN asked if DOT&PF could remedy an omission.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN said  the  amendment process  allows  changes to  be                                                               
made.    He said  the  policy  omission noted  by  Representative                                                               
Johnson probably would  not prevent it from being  adopted but he                                                               
believes  that  policy  should  be  mentioned  anyway  as  it  is                                                               
important.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
3:24:04 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
ADJOURNMENT                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
There being no  further business before the  committee, the House                                                               
Transportation Standing  Committee meeting was adjourned  at 3:24                                                               
p.m.                                                                                                                            

Document Name Date/Time Subjects